Napoleon Bonaparte is reputed to have said, “A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon.” Judging from scuttlebutt on the web, Office users have been struggling long and hard to cope with a new colored ribbon.
Author Robert Benchley once said, “The biggest obstacle to professional writing is the necessity for changing a typewriter ribbon.” The modern equivalent may be that the biggest obstacle to professional work in Office 2007 is an arbitrarily changing ribbon.
Simon Murphy has hosted a week’s worth of commentary about the Office UI Ribbon, aka the Office Fluent Interface. This last has been modified to Effluent Interface by its biggest “fans”. Simon uses the phrase frequently, and so do several of his readers, but I think I may have actually coined the term in a comment on Simon’s blog.
Simon has pulled no punches about this glaring new interface, and he attracts substantial commentary supporting and expanding on his views. Simon’s readers do not consist of ordinary crybabies; they include the most experienced and advanced Excel users on the planet, and these experts have opinions which should be heard. Simon’s topics over the past week include:
- Ribbon lovers week
- Excel 2007 ate my work
- Ribbon Will it – won’t it control thingy
- Ribbon tab based litter
- Ribbon screen stealer
- Ribbon Style Princess
- The ribbon file blunderfest
Jimmy Pena covered the ribbon in his blog recently, in a post bemoaning the fact that Microsoft has had to release add-ins to help users find where their favorite 2003 commands have been hidden in 2007:
I’ve covered the ribbon in a few of my own blog entries:
- A Belated Review of Excel 2007
- Changes to Charting in Excel 2007
- What happened to my favorite Excel 2003 Chart feature?
I don’t totally hate the ribbon, in fact. It’s relatively easy to work with as a designer. The XML is relatively straightforward, and there’s a tremendous resource for dealing with the Office 2007 ribbon interface, RibbonX: Customizing the Office 2007 Ribbon, by Robert Martin, Ken Puls, and Teresa Hennig. It’s the book I use most often lately. It would be easier to work with custom ribbon layouts if you didn’t have to close the workbook containing the XML code to edit it, and if the editing tools were more fluid in their behavior. But you can in fact interface the ribbon with VBA, with a little effort.
As a user, however, I think the ribbon is a mistake. The ribbon has morphed into a variable toolbar with large, sparsely positioned buttons. Too few controls are available at a time, and too many are hidden arbitrarily, by the Microsoft philosophy that “These are the controls we know you need for what we know you want to do now”. There is no built-in way for the user to customize the ribbon and show the controls the user knows he wants for what he is actually doing, though third-party developers have tried to fill this gap. And the ribbon isn’t even the most frustrating part of the new interface. Many new dialogs have become awkward and unwieldy, requiring the work of one Excel 2003 dialog tab to be spread over two or more (in one case SIX!!) dialog tabs.
Dennis Wallentin says
Jon et al,
I find it remarkable that the general discussion is mixed with emotions. Personally I cannot love or hate tools only individuals.
The emotional aspect (whining and love/hate) together with a poor language (see Excel 2007 ate my work) tend to hide the issues and the limitations that are actually being discussed. The lack of a structural approach makes it also less possible to get an overall picture of the limitations as well as the possible bugs.
In the book “Excel 2007 VBA” Green, Bullen, Bovey and Alexander (Wrox, 2007) they list a number of limitations with RibbonX in a structural way. In the book “Professional Excel Development” (2nd edition) Bovey, Wallentin, Bullen and Green also discuss the limitations with RibbonX. These limitations are important to also be viewed in a general discussion about the Ribbon UI.
No “mercy” seems not to be giving to the fact that in Office 2007 we see version 1.0 of the Ribbon UI. As we all know (or should know), no one can create a perfect solution in version 1.0. In other words, we should expect (and also require) that some improvements will be made in version 2.0.
An emerging trend is that clients require the Ribbon UI to be implemented in managed COM add-in solutions for Excel as well as standalone .NET solutions. In this context we need to use third-party tool to implement it (for instance see http://xldennis.wordpress.com/2009/06/04/implement-the-ribbon-ui-in-windows-forms/). However, in this context we can also provide highly customized Ribbon UI solutions that also support the XML standard. In other words, beyond the VBA development the Ribbon UI seems to quickly become de facto standard and which seems to be client driven.
Kind regards,
Dennis
Jon Peltier says
Dennis –
Twice WordPress has eaten my reply, so it is not only the Office 2007 interface which I find lacking.
Thank you for your thoughtful discussion.
The emotional aspect of my interaction with Excel 2007 comes from my extreme frustration in using its grossly inefficient interface. Many tasks require a longer path through various options (i,e., more mouse clicks) to accomplish. Often the most efficient way to carry out your task is through legacy shortcut keys, which are undiscoverable in 2007.
In an upcoming post, I will discuss with concrete examples and detailed explanations some of the shortcomings of the dialogs in Excel 2007. This will show that we are not just “whining”, but are being hobbled by ineffective dialog and interface design.
Dennis Wallentin says
Jon,
(Nowdays I use a texteditor to write my messages before I (try) to post them at a blog or web forum.)
I do not necessary disagree with the shortcomings of the Ribbon UI but would like to see that the discussion becomes more wider and focused on the subjects.
Looking forward to take part of “no-whining” future blogposts.
Kind regards,
Dennis
Mark Storch says
I have to disagree with Dennis.
While this is version 1.0 of the Ribbon Interface, thisi more like version 9 or 10 of the Office Interface and that, I believe, is the souces of the rancor usually associated with the new UI.
Personally, I have observed that the new interface is, in essence, inefficient. After customizing the toolbars (stress on the plural) in the previous edition, almost every common task I needed was a single mouse click. Under the new interface, it is almost certain that the function I need is not on the Ribbon pane that is showing, so it is at least twice as many clicks, if not more.
The question as I see it is a very simple one: who knows how I want to work better, me or Microsoft? All versions of Office before this one assumed the user knew their needs best. For whatever reason, in this version Microsoft decided that they know how you should be st do things. I can only hope that the user outcry over the Ribbon will at the very least show Microsoft that there is a need that is not currently being satisfactorily met and, hopefully, they will at least include in the next version of Office the option for “power users” to customize things the way they have in almost every prior version.
JP says
You have other posts about Excel 2007 in general (not just the Ribbon), such as
Why I don’t like Excel 2007 Charts
Excel 2007 recalculates slowly
Those deserve highlight as well since they are concrete examples/ test cases.
I agree with Dennis that we are seeing the first version of the Ribbon, and therefore should have some flexibility in judgment. But I can’t help my initial visceral reaction, which is “Why are all these buttons clogging my UI?” and “Why do I have to learn XML to change it?”
I think that some (many?) Excel 2003 users are disrupted by the new UI, and feel it’s an unnecessary change. All we needed was some new formulas, and maybe more rows and columns.
Jon Peltier says
Dennis –
I sometimes use an external editor, and for my final reply, the one that I successfully posted, I did so. I also took the lost ideas from my deleted comments and am turning them into a new post. Stay tuned.
JP says
Mark —
Excel can’t display all the possible options on the toolbar (although it seems like they’re trying really hard!), so MS has to choose which ones to show. Unfortunately, they seemed to have chosen options that only some users want, at the expense of others. The superficial formatting options seems to have exploded, is that what people use Excel for?
And my understanding from MS is that the Ribbon is here to stay.
Dennis Wallentin says
Mark,
When the Ribbon Ui was introduced with Office 2007 it ended the era of the Classic Commandbar. Any comparison between the past standard (Classic Command) and the present & future standard (Ribbon UI) is therefore not relevant.
We can have all kind of feelings for it but it was a business decision by the owner of the Office suite, i.e. MSFT. We can say it was a wrong or right decision but it will not change anything.
Instead of looking back we are forced to evaluate “the new kid on the block” and on its own in order to get a framework for best practice. This is more relevant and important to achieve then anything else.
And I cannot see any reason why it would not be possible as in the past this was achieved for the Classic Commandbar within the Excel development community.
JP,
XML has become the de facto standard on the .NET platform. The use of Ribbon UI as well as the new file format in Office 2007, Open XML File Format, simple support the XML standard. I believe that the right approach is simple to accept it and learn how to work with XML.
Kind regards,
Dennis
Jon Peltier says
Dennis –
Comparisons between past and current interfaces are very relevant. Not the structure or the inner workings, but the ease with which they enable users to do their work.
I don’t care whether I use VBA, XML, or paint-by-numbers to generate an interface. I care that I can easily customize it via whatever mechanism, I care that the commands I need are easily available (in view, etc.), and I care that labor-saving functionality I have made great use of in the past (floating toolbars, tearaway palettes) remain available for me to use in the future.
What you are hearing isn’t petty whining. It is a sign of real pain and frustration by real users. It may not be vocalized clearly or stylishly, but that doesn’t make it less valid.
Dennis Wallentin says
Jon,
I both hear You and respect You but the focus should still be set to create a framework for best practice when working with the Ribbon UI.
Sure, all paradigm shifts are always associated with “pain”. Mainly because we try to apply the old approach on the new paradigm and discover it’s no longer applicable.
A new paradigm challenge us all and on all levels and I’m old enough to know how difficult it is to change. We also know that new tools tend to solve some issues but at the same time create new issues.
Sorry to be a pain… and I hope that no one get offended due to my opinion.
Kind regards,
Dennis
JP says
Dennis,
This might sound odd, but what exactly does Excel have to do with .NET? Is Excel going to be re-written as managed code?
Not everyone is a programmer, nor should one need to be one to customize such a program. And if you have to learn a new programming language (or whatever you want to call XML) in order to do so, there’s a problem.
I’m not even necessarily referring to VBA developers, but everyday users who’ve been disoriented and made less productive by the new UI. Your suggestion is to accept it without complaint, but wasn’t it user suggestions that changed it in the first place?
Jon Peltier says
Dennis –
I know what you’re saying, and normally I would agree. If this new paradigm actually added to what we could do, people would be excited to learn how to make the new interface work for them.
Unfortunately this new paradigm is taking away functionality and harming productivity. People are so upset about this that they can’t even see any potential benefit brought by the new interface.
This is not a matter of familiarity. I really tried very hard to like this new interface. I read all the blog posts, I tried all the examples, I worked at it. I have been using it for going on 4 years. I am sufficiently familiar with the interface to know my inefficiency is not due to lack of knowledge in the interface. I can point to specific problems with the interface, many of which are caused by the interface working against the inherent physiology of human vision, cognition, memory, and understanding.
Dennis Wallentin says
JP,
I’m a professional Excel developer for the last 20 years or so, I use built-in functionality in Excel, VBA, classic VB, VB.NET together with MS Access, SQL Server databases in my solutions.
For the last couple of years I moved more and more to the .NET platform to develop managed COM add-ins solutions for Excel. I also develop from time to time VSTO solutions.
I can agree that business people should *not* become programmers to customize and automate different tasks in Excel. However, MSFT is strongly focused on .NET platform and future versions of Excel will probably get more close to it.
But from what I can understand the VBE Editor will be available in the next coming version of the Office suite.
Jon,
Upto Excel 2003 I was not a friend of dictator applications. But with the release of Excel 2007 with the Ribbon UI I got the perfect companion. One line of XML code and all the built-in tabs are gone and with some additional XML code I create a customized Ribbon UI.
I also work with the Ribbon UI via third-party tools when developing managed COM add-ins and VSTO solutions. On .NET platform and together with the tools it’s a joy to work with the Ribbon UI. I’m the first to regret it but the available tool to work with the Ribbon UI with VBA is less attractive. In this context VBA is treated as the second class citizen…
Kind regards,
Dennis
Jon Peltier says
Dennis –
I’m still no fan of dictator apps. I never liked using them, and I’ve hardly ever tried to build one. It’s too hard to remove (and keep track of) all the built in goodness of Excel. The StartFromScratch setting in RibbonX makes the ribbon easier to control, but there are still lots of other things (shortcuts, settings for calculation, and so forth) that make it a challenge no to mess up the user’s normal Excel experience. Most of my apps complement Excel’s normal functionality, coexisting with Excel.
I haven’t gotten into VSTO and .Net yet, but when I do, I’ve already determined that your blog will be one of my main sources for help. In this area you’re far braver than I (of course I have no clients pushing me into it as yet). Using VBA to fiddle with the ribbon hasn’t been too bad. I find it almost easier than using the awkward Custom UI Editor. Again, if not for helpful people out there, namely the authors of RibbonX: Customizing the Office 2007 Ribbon, I could not say that about VBA and RibbonX.
sam says
Dennis,
When was the last time you had to beat a deadline for submitting a report in Excel
When was the last time you had some one breathing down your neck asking for work to be done yesterday…..in Excel…
Almost every one on this blog and Simon’s blog and Dick’s blog and JWalk’s blog ….etc etc are “Excel Super Users” but are not working in an Organisation doing 9 to 6 kind of work.
They are either doing development work….writing books or blogs….
So a few extra clicks dont matter much…. the ribbon therefore becomes the latest toy to play with and productivity takes a back seat.
If you remember the Release of Excel 2000 – MS released a “white paper” on “increased productivity” showing how Excel 2000 was more productive than 97.
When they released Excel XP – The same white paper …..when they released 2003 the same thing….”Productivity” was the key…. Do more in Less was the tag line…
Some how this “White Paper” did not get released when the launched 2007…
MS knows its not productive….Productivity has taken a back seat in MS as well
Dennis Wallentin says
sam,
Could You have the kindness to elaborate with the differences between a professional Excel developer and an Excel Super user?
Speaking about Excel reports. Many corporates moves to the Office SharePoint platform and produce a large number of Excel reports. In other corporates they rely heavily on SQL Server Reporting Services and it exist a great number of tools to generate Excel reports. The key point here is that today we can work with Excel in a great number of ways including automation of Excel with other tools then “made in MSFT”.
I remember when Excel 2.1d was released for DOS/Windows. At that time Lotus 1-2-3 for DOS was the de facto standard and we only used keyboard’s commands. When Windows and Excel became the de facto standard around 1990 we lost much of the productivity due to the graphical UI.
Now I will print out the new post from Jon which looks very interesting.
Kind regards,
Dennis
sam says
Dennis,
You probably misunderstood my comment…
I said you and many people on this blog and authors and/or commentators on other blogs are not the average excel users – they are “super users”
A average excel user is a guy(or gal) working from 9 to 5 beating a deadline to submit a report/quotation/ etc etc.
These guys(and gals) are effected to a large extent by the changed UI compared to you or J walk or Dick K etc etc…..
Dennis Wallentin says
Sam,
Yes, You’re right that I misunderstood Your comment – sorry.
You’re also right about the difference between the group of end users and developers. Perhaps this is also valid when it comes to MSFT Excel team that they also don’t view if from an end user’s perspective?
Kind regards,
Dennis
Simon says
Dennis
I’m pleased you are able to separate emotion and tools. I can tell you after several months of a high profile Excel 2007 migration project that most people cannot.
I had to deal with some seriously angry people. (as Sam mentions – those tight deadlines, and that V10 UI that Mark mentions)
My series of post was written based on what I saw those several hundred users go through. (and it wasn’t cold calm and calculated!)
We’re never going to agree on the business benefit of the ribbon, or the ‘approach’ we as the Excel community should take. But we can have fun discussing it, at length!
cheers
Simon
Dennis Wallentin says
Simon,
I would be very deep concerned and worried if we one day cannot discuss a subject like this. Let us see what Office 2010 brings and then take another “round”!
Kind regards,
Dennis