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	<title>Comments on: Smooth Talking Lies</title>
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	<link>http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/smooth-talking-lies/</link>
	<description>Peltier Tech Excel Charts and Programming Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Jon Peltier</title>
		<link>http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/smooth-talking-lies/comment-page-1/#comment-14783</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Peltier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 03:58:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/?p=1995#comment-14783</guid>
		<description>&quot;...how it works in engineering...&quot;

In design or in theoretical areas (more R&amp;D than E) you can often use some kind of smoothed lines. I mentioned wind chill; stress concentration factors is another use. As I pointed out before, if you know the shape of the phenomenon being modeled, and as you said, if the measurement errors are relatively small, then go ahead.

I still prefer to see unsmoothed lines, though, so I know clearly where the data is &quot;known&quot;, and I will do the smoothing in my own mind. This is for transferring information, not for making predictions.

&quot;Cardinal splines can be viewed as just a particular type of Bezier curve&quot;

I suspected as much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230;how it works in engineering&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>In design or in theoretical areas (more R&amp;D than E) you can often use some kind of smoothed lines. I mentioned wind chill; stress concentration factors is another use. As I pointed out before, if you know the shape of the phenomenon being modeled, and as you said, if the measurement errors are relatively small, then go ahead.</p>
<p>I still prefer to see unsmoothed lines, though, so I know clearly where the data is &#8220;known&#8221;, and I will do the smoothing in my own mind. This is for transferring information, not for making predictions.</p>
<p>&#8220;Cardinal splines can be viewed as just a particular type of Bezier curve&#8221;</p>
<p>I suspected as much.</p>
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		<title>By: Lori Miller</title>
		<link>http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/smooth-talking-lies/comment-page-1/#comment-14781</link>
		<dc:creator>Lori Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 02:43:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/?p=1995#comment-14781</guid>
		<description>Jon - i agree that measured data should generally be handled using regression techniques particularly for making forecasts. But the simple trends often inserted into Excel charts can be quite misleading particularly for financial or time series data where other factors are in play such as serial correlation and hidden variable bias. 

When mesurement errors are small compared to the chart scale or data is quoted at a fixed level it can make sense to use splines for estimation and there is a large literature on the subject. For example they are used to construct yield curves from bond yields of varying maturities and for modeling empirical distribution functions. Coming from a stats/finance background, i don&#039;t know much about how it works in engineering or other areas.

The conclusions about Excel curves actually followed from Brian&#039;s analysis and i&#039;ve been in contact with him to discuss this. Cardinal splines can be viewed as just a particular type of Bezier curve, restricted to one parameter and using a different set of reference points.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jon &#8211; i agree that measured data should generally be handled using regression techniques particularly for making forecasts. But the simple trends often inserted into Excel charts can be quite misleading particularly for financial or time series data where other factors are in play such as serial correlation and hidden variable bias. </p>
<p>When mesurement errors are small compared to the chart scale or data is quoted at a fixed level it can make sense to use splines for estimation and there is a large literature on the subject. For example they are used to construct yield curves from bond yields of varying maturities and for modeling empirical distribution functions. Coming from a stats/finance background, i don&#8217;t know much about how it works in engineering or other areas.</p>
<p>The conclusions about Excel curves actually followed from Brian&#8217;s analysis and i&#8217;ve been in contact with him to discuss this. Cardinal splines can be viewed as just a particular type of Bezier curve, restricted to one parameter and using a different set of reference points.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Peltier</title>
		<link>http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/smooth-talking-lies/comment-page-1/#comment-14777</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Peltier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 00:50:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/?p=1995#comment-14777</guid>
		<description>Hi Lori -

Thanks for joining the discussion. Regarding smooth lines for connecting points, I almost presented an example I made some time ago showing wind chill factors. Smoothed lines made sense in that case, as in your examples of engineering design. 

When I wrote this post, I was thinking of measured data, though, not analytical output. As with financial (stochastic or random-walk exercises), measured data already has error built into the values in the chart, and there is no reason to assume the curves that Excel draws through the points will model the data any better than straight lines. If you know the shape of the relationship, go ahead and draw a best fit curve through the measured data using the known relationship.

According to Brian Murphy of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.xlrotor.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Rotating Machinery Analysis, Inc.&lt;/a&gt; (who has analyzed the living snot out of it), Excel connects data points using beziers for the smoothed lines. Brian presents an analysis in a downloadable file, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.xlrotor.com/Smooth_curve_bezier_example_file.zip&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Smooth_curve_bezier_example_file.xls&lt;/a&gt;. I&#039;m not sure the result is much different than for the cardinal spline you cited.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Lori -</p>
<p>Thanks for joining the discussion. Regarding smooth lines for connecting points, I almost presented an example I made some time ago showing wind chill factors. Smoothed lines made sense in that case, as in your examples of engineering design. </p>
<p>When I wrote this post, I was thinking of measured data, though, not analytical output. As with financial (stochastic or random-walk exercises), measured data already has error built into the values in the chart, and there is no reason to assume the curves that Excel draws through the points will model the data any better than straight lines. If you know the shape of the relationship, go ahead and draw a best fit curve through the measured data using the known relationship.</p>
<p>According to Brian Murphy of <a href="http://www.xlrotor.com/" rel="nofollow">Rotating Machinery Analysis, Inc.</a> (who has analyzed the living snot out of it), Excel connects data points using beziers for the smoothed lines. Brian presents an analysis in a downloadable file, <a href="http://www.xlrotor.com/Smooth_curve_bezier_example_file.zip" rel="nofollow">Smooth_curve_bezier_example_file.xls</a>. I&#8217;m not sure the result is much different than for the cardinal spline you cited.</p>
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		<title>By: Lori Miller</title>
		<link>http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/smooth-talking-lies/comment-page-1/#comment-14773</link>
		<dc:creator>Lori Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 00:10:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/?p=1995#comment-14773</guid>
		<description>Joining points with straight lines makes more sense than smoothed lines for financial series as the relationships are often not inherently smooth, instead they are modeled on random walks or fractals. 

If the underlying relationship is smooth however, smoothed lines will generally be closer to the truth than straight lines (i.e. the error term is smaller) and these kinds of curve are used widely in situations when no particular functional form is assumed. Applications include engineering design, computer animation, typography, non-parametric statistics, fixed-income finance, etc.

The Excel curve is a type of spline with tension applied in parts of the curve where points are relatively close to each other, details can be found in a few threads in excel.charting. For a non-technical description, see:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms536358(VS.85).aspx</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joining points with straight lines makes more sense than smoothed lines for financial series as the relationships are often not inherently smooth, instead they are modeled on random walks or fractals. </p>
<p>If the underlying relationship is smooth however, smoothed lines will generally be closer to the truth than straight lines (i.e. the error term is smaller) and these kinds of curve are used widely in situations when no particular functional form is assumed. Applications include engineering design, computer animation, typography, non-parametric statistics, fixed-income finance, etc.</p>
<p>The Excel curve is a type of spline with tension applied in parts of the curve where points are relatively close to each other, details can be found in a few threads in excel.charting. For a non-technical description, see:<br />
<a href="http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms536358(VS.85).aspx" rel="nofollow">http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms536358(VS.85).aspx</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mike Woodhouse</title>
		<link>http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/smooth-talking-lies/comment-page-1/#comment-14646</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Woodhouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 19:49:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/?p=1995#comment-14646</guid>
		<description>Plotting data like this (these?) as line charts just begs for someone to add smoothing (almost always a guarantee of lost information) or some inappropriate trend or curve-fit. In pre-computer days we&#039;d join the dots on our paper charts to save ourselves the tedium of hand-colouring the bars; these days we can just change to a column chart and be done with it. Discrete points should be plotted discretely. Something like that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Plotting data like this (these?) as line charts just begs for someone to add smoothing (almost always a guarantee of lost information) or some inappropriate trend or curve-fit. In pre-computer days we&#8217;d join the dots on our paper charts to save ourselves the tedium of hand-colouring the bars; these days we can just change to a column chart and be done with it. Discrete points should be plotted discretely. Something like that.</p>
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		<title>By: derek</title>
		<link>http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/smooth-talking-lies/comment-page-1/#comment-14644</link>
		<dc:creator>derek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 19:07:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/?p=1995#comment-14644</guid>
		<description>Regarding the shape of markers with low screen resolution: that&#039;s why I mostly stick to the square marker.  Then the shape is less vulnerable to Excel 2003 or lower&#039;s poor symbol handling.  I&#039;m hoping 2010 will be an improvement (psst.. Microsoft! there&#039;s this technology called Truetype, you may have heard of it?) 

Speaking of which, I sometimes abandon crude markers altogether, in favour of Wingdings or other text symbols. But that has its own hazards, because they don&#039;t always match up nicely with the lines. You can use error bars as crosshairs to check whether any drift is small enough to tolerate. 

Or you can use the error bars themselves. A zero-length error bar with no crossbar and a thick line width makes a surprisingly neat small circular dot, just as precisely placed as, but less pixellated than, the circle marker.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding the shape of markers with low screen resolution: that&#8217;s why I mostly stick to the square marker.  Then the shape is less vulnerable to Excel 2003 or lower&#8217;s poor symbol handling.  I&#8217;m hoping 2010 will be an improvement (psst.. Microsoft! there&#8217;s this technology called Truetype, you may have heard of it?) </p>
<p>Speaking of which, I sometimes abandon crude markers altogether, in favour of Wingdings or other text symbols. But that has its own hazards, because they don&#8217;t always match up nicely with the lines. You can use error bars as crosshairs to check whether any drift is small enough to tolerate. </p>
<p>Or you can use the error bars themselves. A zero-length error bar with no crossbar and a thick line width makes a surprisingly neat small circular dot, just as precisely placed as, but less pixellated than, the circle marker.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Peltier</title>
		<link>http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/smooth-talking-lies/comment-page-1/#comment-14643</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Peltier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 19:05:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/?p=1995#comment-14643</guid>
		<description>Thom - Thanks. I don&#039;t know where I got it from, it just came out. The Chiffons were sweet talkin&#039;, though, weren&#039;t they?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thom &#8211; Thanks. I don&#8217;t know where I got it from, it just came out. The Chiffons were sweet talkin&#8217;, though, weren&#8217;t they?</p>
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		<title>By: Thom Mitchell</title>
		<link>http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/smooth-talking-lies/comment-page-1/#comment-14641</link>
		<dc:creator>Thom Mitchell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 17:59:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Great title for the post, Jon! 
(with apologies to the Chiffons?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great title for the post, Jon!<br />
(with apologies to the Chiffons?)</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Peltier</title>
		<link>http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/smooth-talking-lies/comment-page-1/#comment-14636</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Peltier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 15:00:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/?p=1995#comment-14636</guid>
		<description>Dick -

A chart with a low level of precision conveys information better than a table with a low level of precision. Of course, if there are three numbers, then it&#039;s not worth dusting off your seldom-used charting apparatus to make a chart. Michael&#039;s error bars comprise one way to display imprecision, but often the degree of precision isn&#039;t known as well as a standard deviation or range of values. Especially if the topic is financial numbers, or predictions, or predictions of financial numbers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dick -</p>
<p>A chart with a low level of precision conveys information better than a table with a low level of precision. Of course, if there are three numbers, then it&#8217;s not worth dusting off your seldom-used charting apparatus to make a chart. Michael&#8217;s error bars comprise one way to display imprecision, but often the degree of precision isn&#8217;t known as well as a standard deviation or range of values. Especially if the topic is financial numbers, or predictions, or predictions of financial numbers.</p>
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		<title>By: Dick Kusleika</title>
		<link>http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/smooth-talking-lies/comment-page-1/#comment-14634</link>
		<dc:creator>Dick Kusleika</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 14:09:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/?p=1995#comment-14634</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not a charting guy, so ignore everything I say!  I think the first question is, what are you trying to convey.  If you want to know what sales in April were, then perhaps a chart, smoothed or otherwise, isn&#039;t the right vehicle.  If, however, you want to demonstrate that August and Christmas are big selling months and March stinks, then a chart, smoothed or otherwise, seems fine.

I guess my question is: If I want to display imprecise information, like general trends, is it OK to use a chart with a low level of precision?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not a charting guy, so ignore everything I say!  I think the first question is, what are you trying to convey.  If you want to know what sales in April were, then perhaps a chart, smoothed or otherwise, isn&#8217;t the right vehicle.  If, however, you want to demonstrate that August and Christmas are big selling months and March stinks, then a chart, smoothed or otherwise, seems fine.</p>
<p>I guess my question is: If I want to display imprecise information, like general trends, is it OK to use a chart with a low level of precision?</p>
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