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	<title>Comments on: Bar graphs vs. Pie charts</title>
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	<description>Peltier Tech Excel Charts and Programming Blog</description>
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		<title>By: DaleW</title>
		<link>http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/bar-graphs-vs-pie-charts/comment-page-1/#comment-17062</link>
		<dc:creator>DaleW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Aug 2009 21:43:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/?p=144#comment-17062</guid>
		<description>Jon,

In trying to imagine the data depicted in your pie chart, my best guess is that we have a D&amp;D game where Trolls are one of several factions, and we have called up a graph showing power by faction.  (If you have a better explanation, do share.)

According to a reference you cited elsewhere in your blog, Stephen Few&#039;s &quot;Save the Pies for Dessert&quot;, there is a Secret Strength to Pies.  While Few is certainly not a fan of pie charts, his paper concludes:

&gt;&gt; Regardless, the fact remains that a comparison of two sets of summed parts is rare in the real world. But, by all means, should you ever need to display data for this purpose, a pie chart would serve you well. Otherwise, save the pies for dessert.

http://www.perceptualedge.com/articles/08-21-07.pdf

It seems that you have created an example of just this type of scenario here -- where the rational player would be concerned how to set up an alliance that might defeat the threating Trolls (Elves, Dragon, Orcs, and Gremlins would potentially work) -- the scenario where even Stephen Few concedes that pie charts should be superior to bar charts.  QED.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jon,</p>
<p>In trying to imagine the data depicted in your pie chart, my best guess is that we have a D&amp;D game where Trolls are one of several factions, and we have called up a graph showing power by faction.  (If you have a better explanation, do share.)</p>
<p>According to a reference you cited elsewhere in your blog, Stephen Few&#8217;s &#8220;Save the Pies for Dessert&#8221;, there is a Secret Strength to Pies.  While Few is certainly not a fan of pie charts, his paper concludes:</p>
<p>&gt;&gt; Regardless, the fact remains that a comparison of two sets of summed parts is rare in the real world. But, by all means, should you ever need to display data for this purpose, a pie chart would serve you well. Otherwise, save the pies for dessert.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.perceptualedge.com/articles/08-21-07.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.perceptualedge.com/articles/08-21-07.pdf</a></p>
<p>It seems that you have created an example of just this type of scenario here &#8212; where the rational player would be concerned how to set up an alliance that might defeat the threating Trolls (Elves, Dragon, Orcs, and Gremlins would potentially work) &#8212; the scenario where even Stephen Few concedes that pie charts should be superior to bar charts.  QED.</p>
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		<title>By: DaleW</title>
		<link>http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/bar-graphs-vs-pie-charts/comment-page-1/#comment-17052</link>
		<dc:creator>DaleW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Aug 2009 18:03:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/?p=144#comment-17052</guid>
		<description>Even scientifically trained audiences can more quickly grasp certain facts from this pie chart than from this bar chart.

For instance, if the first faction which claims a sufficient majority will be the winner, the pie chart makes the troll threat (and potential alliances) much more obvious.

If % of total (population, resources, whatever) is irrelevant, don&#039;t use a pie chart!!!

On the other hand, if we want to see trends, a trend line chart would seem to me to be more versatile and generally effective than a series of bar charts (or pie charts).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even scientifically trained audiences can more quickly grasp certain facts from this pie chart than from this bar chart.</p>
<p>For instance, if the first faction which claims a sufficient majority will be the winner, the pie chart makes the troll threat (and potential alliances) much more obvious.</p>
<p>If % of total (population, resources, whatever) is irrelevant, don&#8217;t use a pie chart!!!</p>
<p>On the other hand, if we want to see trends, a trend line chart would seem to me to be more versatile and generally effective than a series of bar charts (or pie charts).</p>
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		<title>By: jim</title>
		<link>http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/bar-graphs-vs-pie-charts/comment-page-1/#comment-10200</link>
		<dc:creator>jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Feb 2009 19:44:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/?p=144#comment-10200</guid>
		<description>I would argue it isn&#039;t quite a matter of taste, but i say that with exactly the points you make. &quot;Trolls are the most&quot; is not quite the same point as &quot;trolls are more than x, y, z&quot; in a story. In the former, you care about the overall level relative to a whole versus comparison to others.

The biggest problem I see with pie charts is people use them just be graphical when they should in fact be using a table.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would argue it isn&#8217;t quite a matter of taste, but i say that with exactly the points you make. &#8220;Trolls are the most&#8221; is not quite the same point as &#8220;trolls are more than x, y, z&#8221; in a story. In the former, you care about the overall level relative to a whole versus comparison to others.</p>
<p>The biggest problem I see with pie charts is people use them just be graphical when they should in fact be using a table.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth Godin on graphs in presentations &#171; OECD Factblog</title>
		<link>http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/bar-graphs-vs-pie-charts/comment-page-1/#comment-2579</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Godin on graphs in presentations &#171; OECD Factblog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:14:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/?p=144#comment-2579</guid>
		<description>[...] Camoes wrote: No bar charts - a caricature. Jon Peltier: &#8220;Pie charts are also abused and overused, and if not forbidden, should be placed on [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Camoes wrote: No bar charts &#8211; a caricature. Jon Peltier: &#8220;Pie charts are also abused and overused, and if not forbidden, should be placed on [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: DSA Insights &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Donut Charts!</title>
		<link>http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/bar-graphs-vs-pie-charts/comment-page-1/#comment-2413</link>
		<dc:creator>DSA Insights &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Donut Charts!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 12:04:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/?p=144#comment-2413</guid>
		<description>[...] Jon Peltier [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Jon Peltier [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Godin’s Silly Rules for Great Graphs &#124; Dashboard Blogs - Examples &#38; Tutorials</title>
		<link>http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/bar-graphs-vs-pie-charts/comment-page-1/#comment-2286</link>
		<dc:creator>Godin’s Silly Rules for Great Graphs &#124; Dashboard Blogs - Examples &#38; Tutorials</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 20:30:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/?p=144#comment-2286</guid>
		<description>[...] by Godin&#8217;s argument, because Jon Peltier has already done so with great dispatch in his blog. I would like to address Godin&#8217;s final rule, &#8220;Motion,&#8221; which he elaborates by [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] by Godin&#8217;s argument, because Jon Peltier has already done so with great dispatch in his blog. I would like to address Godin&#8217;s final rule, &#8220;Motion,&#8221; which he elaborates by [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Visual Business Intelligence - Godin&#8217;s Silly Rules for Great Graphs</title>
		<link>http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/bar-graphs-vs-pie-charts/comment-page-1/#comment-2281</link>
		<dc:creator>Visual Business Intelligence - Godin&#8217;s Silly Rules for Great Graphs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 16:46:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/?p=144#comment-2281</guid>
		<description>[...] by Godin&#8217;s argument, because Jon Peltier has already done so with great dispatch in his blog. I would like to address Godin&#8217;s final rule, &#8220;Motion,&#8221; which he elaborates by [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] by Godin&#8217;s argument, because Jon Peltier has already done so with great dispatch in his blog. I would like to address Godin&#8217;s final rule, &#8220;Motion,&#8221; which he elaborates by [...]</p>
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		<title>By: derek</title>
		<link>http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/bar-graphs-vs-pie-charts/comment-page-1/#comment-2267</link>
		<dc:creator>derek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 06:52:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/?p=144#comment-2267</guid>
		<description>Then a cartoon picture of a scary big troll would be even better at getting the message across.  The dishonesty of using pie charts as a propaganda cartoon is that your audience comes out of the room thinking they&#039;ve been shown some information. They&#039;re wrong, but it&#039;s a common and exploitable error, like bar charts that don&#039;t start at zero.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Then a cartoon picture of a scary big troll would be even better at getting the message across.  The dishonesty of using pie charts as a propaganda cartoon is that your audience comes out of the room thinking they&#8217;ve been shown some information. They&#8217;re wrong, but it&#8217;s a common and exploitable error, like bar charts that don&#8217;t start at zero.</p>
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		<title>By: Nat</title>
		<link>http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/bar-graphs-vs-pie-charts/comment-page-1/#comment-2263</link>
		<dc:creator>Nat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 01:55:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://peltiertech.com/WordPress/?p=144#comment-2263</guid>
		<description>I would say that for the purposes of the &quot;message&quot; Seth wants to put across &quot;focus on trolls&quot; I think that the pie chart does a better job. 
I agree with him, however Seth is not using the chart to transfer information, but to emphasise a message. In this case it is better to view the pie chart as not a chart but as an image or a graphic and its statistical accuracy is not then the compelling measure of it&#039;s effectiveness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would say that for the purposes of the &#8220;message&#8221; Seth wants to put across &#8220;focus on trolls&#8221; I think that the pie chart does a better job.<br />
I agree with him, however Seth is not using the chart to transfer information, but to emphasise a message. In this case it is better to view the pie chart as not a chart but as an image or a graphic and its statistical accuracy is not then the compelling measure of it&#8217;s effectiveness.</p>
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